About Moo

CW: Financial Abuse, Domestic Abuse, Coercive Control

Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to talking about money?

So, I am the Director of Primary Prevention [at WAGEC] — what that means in layperson's language is that it’s my job to work in partnership with community members, corporates, small business, local governments, or community networks of any kind to create awareness about why gender-based violence happens and what we can all do to stop it. Part of this includes encouraging people to have the confidence to be active bystanders [for women in crisis], giving friends, family and colleagues the tools to approach and have a conversation with somebody if we're concerned about them. My job is to teach people those really simple but important skills and to give them the confidence to be able to spot abuse, because it's happening all around us in every demographic and in every single postcode around Australia.

Can you tell us a little more about why tackling financial abuse is so important?

It's a really important time to be talking about financial abuse specifically, which is something that we didn’t know much about in Australia up until probably five or six years ago. We know that many women, and some men as well, may have lots of lots of money on paper and they may be living what appears to be a comfortable or even privileged lifestyle, but actually because they’re in an abusive controlling relationship, they might be living with absolutely no access to money and they may be being financially abused in a whole range of ways. And it's often much harder to talk about those sorts of coercive behaviours where somebody's being abused in quite subtle and hidden ways. And that's the conversation that we've only really just started to have in the last few years in Australia.

How has the conversation evolved in relation to women and money, or financial abuse more broadly? 

I have worked in many parts of the domestic and family violence, and violence prevention sector, for several decades now. And I think the energy, enthusiasm, awareness and the will in the community to start to shift some of the horrific statistics that we see and hear about almost daily has never been stronger. I’m very privileged to work closely with the Commonwealth Bank on their financial abuse, response and prevention programs. And we had a beautiful launch earlier this year, for a podcast series produced by Future Women called ‘There’s No Place Like Home’, which I'd really encourage people to check out. It pulls back the curtain to reveal the nature and impact of domestic and family violence in Australia. They released an episode a week for three months centred on the voices of victims/survivors; the voices that often you don't hear. Commbank also commissioned UNSW’s Gendered Violence Research Unit to produce a series of research pieces on financial abuse as well as a report by Deloitte, ‘The cost of financial abuse in Australia,’ which is the first time that anybody has tried to quantify its direct cost to victim/survivors and the broader economy.

‘Over 623,000 women and men were subjected to financial abuse by a current or former intimate partner across Australia in 2020 alone. The impacts of financial abuse incurred an estimated $5.7 billion in direct costs for victim/survivors and $5.2 billion in costs for the broader economy in 2020.’

— Deloitte, Commonwealth Bank report ‘The cost of financial abuse in Australia,’ 2022

We also have to be careful to remember that, behind every single one of those 623,000 people, lies an incredibly complex story, which often includes extreme power and control. Financial abuse is often part of all sorts of other types of abuse that are going on, and we can only assume that that is the minimum number of people who have been affected by financial abuse in Australia.

Part of the reason that this has remained so hidden until recently is that domestic violence was seen as ‘just the business of women's services’ and nobody wanted to listen to what was going on. Another key part is that it was also considered a private family matter. That has shifted significantly and the media has played a really big part in that along with victim/survivor advocates. Business has really begun to step up and the financial services sector are partnering with NFP experts to help build better supports for people impacted by financial abuse. Good Shepherd’s Financial Independence Hub is a great example of a partnership that is 100% funded by Commbank and run by expert community sector workers to provide long term recovery post financial abuse for victim-survivors.

Are there any other reasons that you are feeling hopeful we can turn the tide now?

We have also come a really long way in terms of having quite strong responses and support structures for victim/survivors of violence in the workplace with a number of workplaces now having paid domestic violence leave that you can access for yourself, or to support someone you know who's going through the process of extricating themselves from domestic violence. We're seeing a real shift in that space in terms of the role of business and industry to be able to support their workforces.

Could you give us an idea of what sorts of red flags we should be looking out for with family, friends, colleagues, and even ourselves, when it comes to financial abuse?

Some of the things that you may see or witness would be:

• If a person looks as if they're quite isolated or cut off from friends and family. That might be a long, slow process, which is really quite deliberate (isolating somebody from their support networks or religious and cultural connections);

• If you see somebody who appears to be walking on eggshells, because coercive control is all about creating (and then maintaining) a level of fear. It’s important to remember here that many, many victims/survivors of violence say that there was never any physical violence, but it was the threat of things like taking their children away that made them stay;

• If they are not allowed to participate in the workforce or studies — doing things that would give connections to the outside;

• If they do not have financial independence, particularly where there might be six or seven cars in the driveway or they may have lovely country properties — but if she's not allowed to make decisions about the joint finances, if she's being coerced into taking out loans or signing up for financial products that she has no control over and won’t benefit from, or no knowledge about what the implications of those commitments might be, that's certainly a sign of financial abuse.

And there's a real structural piece in here around women traditionally not having access to the same type of information and education around financial things.

How can we make an impact as individuals on the financial abuse epidemic?

One way is having conversations with your kids from an early age that are all about framing gender equality for them. Because if we start breaking down those harmful gender stereotypes from when they're young — and I say this because I've got an 18 month old and a five year old — then you are setting them up much better to have a higher level of confidence to be able to ask the right questions or connect to the right places to get the information. Traditionally, historically, we've always done that for boys, right? And that's how the ‘boys club’ manages to perpetuate itself. 

Another way is to approach conversations with people you know in a different way — a way that actually raises awareness for people who are potentially experiencing this and making sure that, if somebody does disclose, you're equipped to point them in the right direction. We don't all need to be domestic and family violence experts. It comes down to having a bit of empathy, having a bit of an understanding, and using your skills to really guide people in the right direction to get that help where they need it.

Do you have any final tips about how we can appropriately, compassionately and effectively respond to a disclosure of financial abuse from someone we know?

You can begin the conversation by saying: ‘look, I'm worried about you, your behaviour has changed, and you’ve stopped turning up to events. I'm concerned. Is everything okay?’ Then you need to just really actively listen, be as non-judgmental as you can, reassure them that you will try to find them some help and support, and that you will respect their decisions and walk alongside them. We know that for many victim/survivors of violence that it takes a really long time to leave or take action, and there are lots of complexities around why that happens. So, not judging when somebody says ‘I'm going back to that relationship, again’, and understanding that there may be some really complex safety reasons around why that is. Let them make the choices and really lead, however that looks for them.

And being aware that it can be really hard for you too as a support person, especially if it's a friend or a family member, or somebody that you care about a lot — so just taking care of yourself as well and making sure that you have things around you that maintain your safety and also your mental health and wellbeing.

Other Ladies Talking Money is an interview series created by Ladies Talk Money to showcase some other incredible women and non-binary people who are also working to change money for the better. We don’t have any direct affiliation with those featured, nor do we recommend or endorse their services. We just happen to love what they do, and choose to show our appreciation through this series and doing what we can to spread the word.

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Any finance info discussed in this seriously fab feature is general advice only. You should consider your personal circumstances before acting on it or reach out if you’d like to discuss your individual needs.